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  • #989435
    diamondsutra
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        Hello! I am noticing a tendency in my recent plein air works that I really dislike! They all seem to be coming out muddy or dull, and I am trying to identify the cause.

        My palette is:
        (don’t know pigment #s off top of my head, but they are all single pigment, lighfast)
        Cobalt Teal, Royal Blue, Ultramarine, Phthalo Green, Sepia, Burnt Umber, Indian Red, Raw Umber, Pyrrole Rubin, Quin Rose, Cad. Red, New Gamboge, Aso yellow.

        I feel like within this palette I have potential for some very vivid colors – I have intense staining blues, yellows, and reds. However, these paintings come out so dull I think!

        I think the main problem is SEPIA! I forget pigment numbers, but I know it is the same pigment as Burnt Umber, mixed with the pigment from Lamp Black. So it is basically black and brown, pretty heavy. It is a rich, pretty color on its own ..

        My go-to darks are mixing sepia with ultramarine or navy blue. Is there a chance that this is significant enough to really flatten and kill enough areas within a painting to make the whole thing muddy? Should I abandon this mixture as my predominant dark?

        Other factors that maybe determine the muddiness of these paintings:

        — They are postcards, crappy paper, takes a long time to draw, washes mix differently than paper I typically use.
        — Using raw umber instead of yellow ochre takes some of the liveliness out of the paintings.
        — Plein air painting in the end of winter when everything really is brown, grey, and unsaturated.

        Any thoughts? I am planning on swapping out sepia and raw umber when they run out in my palette.

        josh here :music:
        my artwork: http://www.joshwalden.com
        my travel blog: http://joshwalden.blogspot.com

        #1157561
        doppler
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            Sepia is a ton of bricks.

            Avoid. Unless you want a dead dull background. Ultramarine blue and burnt sienna make better darks. As does phthalo green and alizarin crimson. Depends on the type of dark you want.

            Annie
            "On the other hand, you have different fingers".
            Steven Wright
            My Flickr Site

            #1157555
            juneto
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                Sepia should be used sparingly . Mixing it can be deadly.
                June:wave:

                Follow your Bliss and the Universe will open doors for you , where there were only walls. Joseph Campbell


                http://blogmomcom.blogspot.com/

                #1157550

                Three votes against sepia, Josh. I would also throw in Payne’s Grey and any other premixed black. They generally tend to deaden colors.

                I agree with Annie about mixing your darks, the combos she named are great.

                You might check out The Watercolor Handbook for even more ideas about darks:

                [B]*Blacks, Grays, and Other Darks*[/B]

                Blacks — Mixing Them

                Darks — Favorite Combos or Paints

                Darks — Mixing Colorful Ones

                Extreme Darks Without Mud

                Neutral Tint Discussion

                To Go Black or Not?

                Tsk! Tsk! I Used Black by Uschi

                Tube Blacks vs Mixed Blacks by Conni (wtrclrgrl)

                Lots of good info in those threads. :D

                Sylvia

                #1157552

                Hi Josh… while I agree that sepia deadens colour, I suspect it isn’t the whole problem unless you’re mixing it with everything…

                To achieve clear, vibrant colour it’s important to understand the “bias” of your colour when mixing.

                For instance… mixing ultramarine blue with azo yellow won’t result in a bright or clear green. It will appear a little dull or muddy. That’s because the ultramarine has a red bias and the azo has a green bias. Red and green are complements and when mixed create a neutral… So, the green mixed with this blue and yellow will always be more muted and dull.

                Now, if you mixed that same yellow with phthalo blue, your green will be really bright and vibrant. That’s because phthalo has a cool or green bias.

                Perhaps my Octanic Colour Thread might provide a little more insight for you…

                And if that doesn’t make your eyes glaze over, continue on with the Greens and Darks Thread to further explore your colour…

                To round out this colour theory, understanding how to use your neutrals or dull, muddy colours to your advantage, perhaps The Mouse Colours Thread will help.

                I have raw umber on my palette and use it sparingly… but I use it because it really does mix up deep blacks with ultramarine. Because of it’s slightly green bias, it looks wonderful on tree branches (for example) as the darkest darks…

                I hope this helps (sometimes it tends to be a little information overload)…

                Char --

                CharMing Art -- "Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art." Leonardo DaVinci

                #1157567
                WthrLady
                Default

                    adding in, I wouldn’t wait to use it up. I’d pop it out of the well and put a more useful colour in its place.

                    #1157565
                    virgil carter
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                        Lots of good advice here. If I was doing monotone value studies I’d use Payne’s Gray or Sepia, since they enable a wide range of values. Otherwise, particularly in a color-oriented palette (as opposed to a tonalist-oriented palette), I’d ditch these colors and raw/burnt umber. I’d replace with raw sienna and burnt sienna, or for more intense/saturated color use the quinacridone equivalents, quin gold and quin burnt orange.

                        Indian Red is also a bit of a question since it’s as opaque as barn paint. It has to really be diluted (meaning a loss of intensity/saturation) to be a nice playmate with other paints–and I like opaques!

                        Then again, everyone has their favorite subjects and paints, so if these work for you, then keep them and press on!

                        Here’s an idea to get more energy into your color: try painting using intensity contrast. Intensity contrast is the contrast one gets by using “pure” color, juxtaposed with a lot of grayed color, particularly grayed with a bias for the complement of the pure color. Said differently, intensity contrast, occurs when “clean” color is contrasted with “dirty” color!

                        Seems to work best if the pure color is the lightest value and most intense/saturated paint in the painting, so blues and greens are more difficult than yellows, oranges and reds.

                        Try it on a scrap and see if it provides more energy in your use of color.

                        Sling paint!
                        Virgil

                        Sling paint,
                        Virgil Carter
                        http://www.virgilcarterfineart.com/

                        #1157562
                        pumkin54
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                            It seems that colors mixed with black like sepia and Payne’s Gray (which I love) are better used sparingly or in monochrome type paintings. Or at the very least they shouldn’t be overly mixed with other colors. I’ve found they have a great value range and have used both with pleasant results in monochromes. But just as many people recommend that black be avoided in paintings, I guess so too should colors that are pre-mixed with black.

                            [FONT=Century Gothic] pumk[/B][/COLOR][FONT=Century Gothic]i[/B][/COLOR][FONT=Century Gothic]n [FONT=Century Gothic]
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                            #1157556
                            PainterRon
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                                Kosvanec has some very good information on the basics of colour mixing. “Transparent Watercolor Wheel”. French Ultramarine is considered opaque and when used to mix grays and blacks can be very useful. Purple’s mixed with FUB and cool reds are primo…they share the red as Char mentioned. However when used to mix across your palette and while painting flat, they can be deadening in the extreme as they sit on the paper and dry to a sheen.

                                To avoid the sabotaging effects of the more opaque colors, singly or in mixtures, use more water and paint with your paper tilted.. You can get away with all manner of corrupt mixes if they are moving across the paper, thinning as they go. Also FUB has a habit of “neutralizing” not only by visually producing grays but by physically almost dissolving some pigments that it comes in contact with. They simply disappear.

                                I recently used FUB as the prime mixer in a painting that I splashed out flat and the wet in wet results were markedly opaque. They were easily lifted and cured.

                                When you are more experienced you can get away with some malarky but as a beginner you have to be wary and take not of the saboteurs. Later when you revisit potentially confounding situations you will have the experience to deal with or avoid them. But you have to remember or make notes or something, mainly figure stuff out.

                                Of course FUB is not the only problem child and when She is good she is very good. Raw umber can kill as can burnt umber…interesting though because burnt umber and winsor blue green shade (only winsor newtons will do this) can produce gorgeous bottle greens.

                                Knowledge is power, experience is liberating and empowering.

                                Ron Morrison
                                http://watercolourproductions.blogspot.com
                                http://www.aperezfineartgallery.com/
                                "Just because its my fault doesn't mean you have to blame me!"

                                #1157566
                                virgil carter
                                Default

                                    Having a compatible “darkening neutral” on one’s palette can be very useful in order to get darker values when desired. The challenge of using transparents is that many are light value paints.

                                    As Pumpkin notes, however, many of the darkening neutrals may include a black pigment (depending on manufacturer), and thus, may not always play well with the other paints, if one is concerned about hue intensity/saturation. I used to depend on Payne’s Gray for a darkening neutral, but the Lamp Black pigment used by Davinci to create Payne’s Gray always seemed to deaden my paint mixtures more than I liked.

                                    I’ve switched to Davinci’s Indigo which is composed of Prussian Blue and Quin Violet, which seems to work better for me. I’ve never used the violet leaning Neutral Tint, but may give it a try someday.

                                    Some folks just use Prussian Blue, but to my eye, it’s greenish leaning is usually a deal breaker. Plus it has a huge drying shift, drying much lighter than when wet.

                                    Just my milage!
                                    Sling paint!
                                    Virgil

                                    Sling paint,
                                    Virgil Carter
                                    http://www.virgilcarterfineart.com/

                                    #1157553

                                    Virgil, I also love DaVinci’s indigo for the reasons you cited… it’s great in monochromatic schemes also because of the value range that can be achieved.

                                    Prussian does have a green bias.

                                    You’d never pry burnt sienna from my poor arthritic hands… :p

                                    Ron, I really like the red bias of French Ultramarine Blue and use that advantage to mix violets… in fact, I removed dioxazine purple from my palette because I prefer the mix of FUB + permanent rose.

                                    I didn’t KNOW about the change that occurs when drying flat! Thanks so much for that… I’ve always thought it to be “chalky” for some reason and your explanation has really helped.

                                    Char --

                                    CharMing Art -- "Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art." Leonardo DaVinci

                                    #1157569
                                    clayville
                                    Default

                                        Just want to say how valuable I find the generous and sage advice from the good folks with vast experience in color mixing on threads like this. Thank you all for sharing it, and Thanks diamondsutra for the provocative question that prompted the advice.
                                        :wave:

                                        #1157551

                                        This has been a most interesting and informative discussion on the subject of using dark colors like Sepia and others vs mixing darks.

                                        I have added a link to this thread in The Watercolor Handbook in the section I quoted above in post #4.

                                        Sylvia

                                        #1157560
                                        Barbara WC
                                        Default

                                            I didn’t KNOW about the change that occurs when drying flat! Thanks so much for that… I’ve always thought it to be “chalky” for some reason and your explanation has really helped.

                                            I didn’t know this either. I’ve read some consider M. Graham’s Ultramarine Blue to be chalky and opaque, but in my hands, it is not. However, I work upright and almost always collect the “bead” of paint that forms at the bottom of a wash- perhaps the heavier, more opaque particles move with the bead. Now I’m interested in doing a wash of M. Graham’s UMB flat vs. upright to see if there is any difference!

                                            I am always amazed at how the same paint can behave differently in each of our hands, lucky us for all the choices we have in brands today! :)

                                            Edited to add: I am another painter that does not have Sepia nor Payne’s grey on my palette. Ultramarine Blue and Burnt Sienna makes wonderful grays, and there are many other more exciting mixtures, I feel no need for Sepia or Payne’s grey

                                            #1157568
                                            diamondsutra
                                            Default

                                                This is great! Seems like it has become a really informative topic for all parties.

                                                I definitely am very mindful of color bias in my mixing. This is my first palette I completely designed from scratch, and it does have a warm and cool bias of red blue and yellow, plus a handful of earth tones ranging from light to dark values. Very important stuff to keep in mind, thanks Char :)

                                                I agree about Prussian blue .. it does have a gross green bias. I find that its mixtures with any browns turn into a really unappealing green. However, it mixes with cadmium red into a beautiful rich brick red/brown.

                                                I guess my best bet is to take that sepia out and put it away. Since it is squeezed out of a tube and left to dry on the palette, I will just wrap up the little dried square in aluminum foil and put it in paint drawer. Yep!

                                                PS – I love Indian Red! It is like painting with clay. I know it is different from Burnt Sienna, but I much prefer it. Burnt Sienna seems to turn green in my mixes.

                                                josh here :music:
                                                my artwork: http://www.joshwalden.com
                                                my travel blog: http://joshwalden.blogspot.com

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